h1techSlave
03-18 09:49 PM
I think Nixtor should explain why he even bothered to call Mr. Foggs' number. There are many many people in this forum with incorrect phone numbers. Why nixtor is not banning all of them. There is even a member with handle 'taliban'.
I had wrong phone number and other contact details for almost 6 months, before I have updated those fields with correct information. Nobody banned me. Why single out Mr. Foggs?
Here is what you provided on the banned id
Phone number 631-922-xxxx. I called the number and a lady answered. I asked "Is there any one living with last name FOGGS?" The answer is NO. I asked are you sure? She goes mad. I then went on to see the city you provided in MD exists, Google maps has no clue about the city.
There are many non-contributing & contributing members and its entirely your wish to do so or not but IV does not need any distractions. Don't bring in the free speech and 1st amendment now.
May be its fun for you and our friends, its not funny here.
I had wrong phone number and other contact details for almost 6 months, before I have updated those fields with correct information. Nobody banned me. Why single out Mr. Foggs?
Here is what you provided on the banned id
Phone number 631-922-xxxx. I called the number and a lady answered. I asked "Is there any one living with last name FOGGS?" The answer is NO. I asked are you sure? She goes mad. I then went on to see the city you provided in MD exists, Google maps has no clue about the city.
There are many non-contributing & contributing members and its entirely your wish to do so or not but IV does not need any distractions. Don't bring in the free speech and 1st amendment now.
May be its fun for you and our friends, its not funny here.
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new_gc
12-17 03:25 PM
My labor is filed in EB3 , and i am awaiting Certification.
My PD is Nov 2007.
I dont feel that i am gonna get even EAD in the next 10 years, with the current delays,unless something major changes.
Any hopes??
i myself am new to all this...but when i surveyed vb's from 1997..it was made current every 2.5 years...and i guess if not stuck in namecheck everything will be fine....and with current situation hopefully something good happens.....
My PD is Nov 2007.
I dont feel that i am gonna get even EAD in the next 10 years, with the current delays,unless something major changes.
Any hopes??
i myself am new to all this...but when i surveyed vb's from 1997..it was made current every 2.5 years...and i guess if not stuck in namecheck everything will be fine....and with current situation hopefully something good happens.....
rajuram
01-25 08:25 PM
There is 500 character limit on the white house web site. I just send simple message saying that USCIS has wasted lot of visas in the earliers due to inefficiency and that they should be recaputred. And that it is causing lot of hardship to well educated people who are here legally.
Sometimes I send a different message (which agrees with new presidents policy about FOIA), I ask the president to get USCIS to disclose pending applications per year per category per country.
Hello rajuram;
We need to keep on sending email/letter to President, Local Senator, Local congressman secretary of Homeland security, secretary of State and Ombudsman.
Please post your email, other members could use same format and send the email. As per my understanding we need to add our story too e.g. when we came, our investment, our capability to buy house and our life is hanging in the middle of no where.
As DallasBlue mentioned to add three items in the email/letter for administrative fixes.
(i) Eliminate per country quota limits
(ii) Recapture the lost visas
(iii) Porcessing dates cannot go back
Sometimes I send a different message (which agrees with new presidents policy about FOIA), I ask the president to get USCIS to disclose pending applications per year per category per country.
Hello rajuram;
We need to keep on sending email/letter to President, Local Senator, Local congressman secretary of Homeland security, secretary of State and Ombudsman.
Please post your email, other members could use same format and send the email. As per my understanding we need to add our story too e.g. when we came, our investment, our capability to buy house and our life is hanging in the middle of no where.
As DallasBlue mentioned to add three items in the email/letter for administrative fixes.
(i) Eliminate per country quota limits
(ii) Recapture the lost visas
(iii) Porcessing dates cannot go back
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prioritydate
12-20 07:05 PM
I was under the impression that 10 - 15 days gap or 1 month gap can be justified as vacation or sick leave as long as "employer - employee " relations exists (not terminated by the employer). One whole year cannot be justified under this.
What would you do if no one is calling for an interview? It is not like I didn't managed to get a job. Nobody called me for an interview. At least, the Desi consulting company that I have joined, didn't managed to arrange an interview.
What would you do if no one is calling for an interview? It is not like I didn't managed to get a job. Nobody called me for an interview. At least, the Desi consulting company that I have joined, didn't managed to arrange an interview.
more...
EkAurAaya
07-16 07:38 PM
I've so many hard working American friends... it really make me want to work harder to compete with them, but these bunch of cry babies at Numbers are scared of skilled workers, they don't want to upgrade their skills, they want to work 9-5 and get paid for their incompetencies.
Ramba
10-20 05:43 PM
McCain was in favor of two major immigration bills. I guess he has better chances to do something about immigration. On the other hand, Obama has never voted for any major immigration bill and who knows what he really will do. Also, people assume that Obama is close to senator Dick Durbin who tried to screw the legal immigrants many times. If Obama wins and Dick Durbin becomes a more influential senator, we probably will be screwed even big time.
Nobody knows who will win the election. What I find interesting is that many assume McCain will somehow help us to speed up our GC process. I don't know who will do what as the economy is in the toilet. I don't think either one will do anything about immigration for next 4 years as they have other things to take care of and legal immigration probably won't be a priority.
However, if no changes are made and things keep going the way it has been going for a while such as - dollar keeps falling, economy keeps going down, businesses keeps going bankrupt - you may not even have a job for too long. With no job, you can pretty much say "goodbye" to your GC right there.
So who really is better? Anyone?
That is because, McCain served in senate more than 2 decades and spend much time in Senate judiciary commitee, which overseas immigration. Obama served only two year in senate (very junior member) and spent time in foreign relation commitee. McCain immigration bill (CIR) mainly to give amnesty to illegal aliens and create guest worker program. That bill was aimed (in 2005/2006) nothing but to win Hispanic votes in his bid to white house in 2008. He had no big concern for skilled workers as well as border secuity. It was all political move by McCain. McCain claims as he was a experienced, working accross party line and strong leader. If that is true, why he was not successful in passing immigration bill in 2006? Atleast Obama has right judgement and vison. Remember that, Skilled worker immigration will always be at bottom preference in any immigration bill in future, as it was in past. As economy in toilet, as McCain needs the help of the "Joe the plumber" to fix the toilet, immigartion will not get any attention even if McCain become the president. FYI, There was no single question about immigration in all 4 debates.
Nobody knows who will win the election. What I find interesting is that many assume McCain will somehow help us to speed up our GC process. I don't know who will do what as the economy is in the toilet. I don't think either one will do anything about immigration for next 4 years as they have other things to take care of and legal immigration probably won't be a priority.
However, if no changes are made and things keep going the way it has been going for a while such as - dollar keeps falling, economy keeps going down, businesses keeps going bankrupt - you may not even have a job for too long. With no job, you can pretty much say "goodbye" to your GC right there.
So who really is better? Anyone?
That is because, McCain served in senate more than 2 decades and spend much time in Senate judiciary commitee, which overseas immigration. Obama served only two year in senate (very junior member) and spent time in foreign relation commitee. McCain immigration bill (CIR) mainly to give amnesty to illegal aliens and create guest worker program. That bill was aimed (in 2005/2006) nothing but to win Hispanic votes in his bid to white house in 2008. He had no big concern for skilled workers as well as border secuity. It was all political move by McCain. McCain claims as he was a experienced, working accross party line and strong leader. If that is true, why he was not successful in passing immigration bill in 2006? Atleast Obama has right judgement and vison. Remember that, Skilled worker immigration will always be at bottom preference in any immigration bill in future, as it was in past. As economy in toilet, as McCain needs the help of the "Joe the plumber" to fix the toilet, immigartion will not get any attention even if McCain become the president. FYI, There was no single question about immigration in all 4 debates.
more...
ras
07-12 11:38 AM
am still unclear. Does it mean those who have PD prior to Jun 06 will get their GC? I cant believe it.
At the personal end, I have my GC filed with Dec 06 PD. However, I have a previous I140 approved with Sept 05. I was thinking about porting the priority date. If I port it now will I get my GC based on the previous priority date?
Ofcourse I dont intend to port it at this point of time because am planning to get married in another 3-4months. so can you guys let me know what would be the best approach. Is it porting the previous priority date now or wait till getting married and then port it? In such case will the spouse be eligible to file for 485 when it is current. am confused.
At the personal end, I have my GC filed with Dec 06 PD. However, I have a previous I140 approved with Sept 05. I was thinking about porting the priority date. If I port it now will I get my GC based on the previous priority date?
Ofcourse I dont intend to port it at this point of time because am planning to get married in another 3-4months. so can you guys let me know what would be the best approach. Is it porting the previous priority date now or wait till getting married and then port it? In such case will the spouse be eligible to file for 485 when it is current. am confused.
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NKR
03-17 10:50 AM
Before retrogression started in "October 2005 Bulletin, Nov 2005 effective", there are quite a few people who applied for I-485 and had PD upto sept 2004. Those cases are approved. I know couple of cases myself.
I think I was current then and I missed out on that date since I was stuck in backlog elimination centre. you could be right.
I think I was current then and I missed out on that date since I was stuck in backlog elimination centre. you could be right.
more...
nomad
07-17 12:58 AM
IVers,
I have created a blog entry here http://utubecitizen.blogspot.com/ regarding numbersusa.com
I have gone through all the posts in this thread, and have taken some of the members comments/points. Am planning to reveal true colors of Lou Dobb, and Tancredo etc in the following days. Please check it out. Please dont consider it as an advt.
thanks
I have created a blog entry here http://utubecitizen.blogspot.com/ regarding numbersusa.com
I have gone through all the posts in this thread, and have taken some of the members comments/points. Am planning to reveal true colors of Lou Dobb, and Tancredo etc in the following days. Please check it out. Please dont consider it as an advt.
thanks
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vandanaverdia
09-11 12:45 PM
This aint my fight... This aint your fight..
THIS IS OUR FIGHT!!!
We need to come together & let our voices be heard!!!
Come to DC...
There is very little time & lots to achieve...
There are miles to go before I sleep.....
THIS IS OUR FIGHT!!!
We need to come together & let our voices be heard!!!
Come to DC...
There is very little time & lots to achieve...
There are miles to go before I sleep.....
more...
eeezzz
03-04 03:39 PM
According to Mr. Gotcher (http://immigration-information.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4409)
Here are of the 5th and 6th paragraphs from Visa Quotas section at the very first post.
In addition to the �fall down� numbers, there are also �spill over� numbers. That is, to the extent that the worldwide category does not use all of the numbers available to it, the remaining numbers spill over and become available to the countries that are impacted by the single country limit.
In order for there to be spill over numbers, however, the worldwide third preference category much be �current� (that is, it may not have a cutoff date). When this happens, then unused worldwide numbers spill over and become available for applicants affected by the single country limit.
Here are of the 5th and 6th paragraphs from Visa Quotas section at the very first post.
In addition to the �fall down� numbers, there are also �spill over� numbers. That is, to the extent that the worldwide category does not use all of the numbers available to it, the remaining numbers spill over and become available to the countries that are impacted by the single country limit.
In order for there to be spill over numbers, however, the worldwide third preference category much be �current� (that is, it may not have a cutoff date). When this happens, then unused worldwide numbers spill over and become available for applicants affected by the single country limit.
hot on July 20, 2009. Young
thepaew
05-26 08:29 PM
I have no problems if Americans want to institute a totalitarian state. But, I do not think that random searches will pass constitutional muster.
Actually entire state of NH is within 100 miles of Canada and the coast.
I feel the 100 mile rule is very reasonable and Border Patrol has every right to conduct random searches, question or detain whoever they suspect is breaking the law. Since it is clear that they could do that in this area, it is absolutely no burden for me to carry my papers when traveling here. At least it is easy when I know where the enforcement will be tighter. Harassment... absolutely not! I would so encourage something similar in my own country :)
I myself was once stopped on a cold December night in 2003 in VT on I-91 by the border patrol and all 4 occupants in the car were questioned about citizenship. We showed our I-94's. We felt good that there is someone is actually doing the enforcement of immigration laws.
Actually entire state of NH is within 100 miles of Canada and the coast.
I feel the 100 mile rule is very reasonable and Border Patrol has every right to conduct random searches, question or detain whoever they suspect is breaking the law. Since it is clear that they could do that in this area, it is absolutely no burden for me to carry my papers when traveling here. At least it is easy when I know where the enforcement will be tighter. Harassment... absolutely not! I would so encourage something similar in my own country :)
I myself was once stopped on a cold December night in 2003 in VT on I-91 by the border patrol and all 4 occupants in the car were questioned about citizenship. We showed our I-94's. We felt good that there is someone is actually doing the enforcement of immigration laws.
more...
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abhijitp
07-25 05:25 PM
If you see the letter and spirit of clause in the said notification, an employment letter is not required and adjudicator has to send RFE if he feels required. File with latest paystubs. If RFE sent to you , then again file latest paystub to show that you was in employment with that employer from the date of filing 485 petition and for at least another 6-7 months further to that date.
Having looked at older posts (here or other threads) by Pappu and others, I think although adjudicator will usually send an RFE there is no guarantee it won't be outright rejected. Secondly, in which application form/ press release etc is ANYTHING AT ALL mentioned about paystubs? On the other hand, the I-485 applocation form instructions clearly say the employment letter is required.
Having looked at older posts (here or other threads) by Pappu and others, I think although adjudicator will usually send an RFE there is no guarantee it won't be outright rejected. Secondly, in which application form/ press release etc is ANYTHING AT ALL mentioned about paystubs? On the other hand, the I-485 applocation form instructions clearly say the employment letter is required.
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singhsa3
03-04 01:30 PM
Done, thanks for your comments
perhaps you want to make it even simpler?
- Remove all the LC/I-140 details, just say that we are at the last stage of a long and arduous process, and are stuck waiting because of very small immigration quota's that were set decades ago which are completely out of line with real supply-demand for the size of todays high-tech workforce. In addition USCIS inefficiency has resulted in them not utilizing even this tiny quota fully, in the past few years.
- instead of EAD and validity just say getting a mortage is a lot easier if your immigration status is permanent. In this final stage of immigration most of us have work authorization that needs to be renewed every year, and mortgage companies dont accept that.
copy paste the suggested fixes there (or add a link to the administrative fixes campaign post)
perhaps you want to make it even simpler?
- Remove all the LC/I-140 details, just say that we are at the last stage of a long and arduous process, and are stuck waiting because of very small immigration quota's that were set decades ago which are completely out of line with real supply-demand for the size of todays high-tech workforce. In addition USCIS inefficiency has resulted in them not utilizing even this tiny quota fully, in the past few years.
- instead of EAD and validity just say getting a mortage is a lot easier if your immigration status is permanent. In this final stage of immigration most of us have work authorization that needs to be renewed every year, and mortgage companies dont accept that.
copy paste the suggested fixes there (or add a link to the administrative fixes campaign post)
more...
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Abhinaym
09-10 01:24 PM
Most of you either have a firewall or a proxy server to go out to the internet at your work locations, which allows for only TCP port 80. So if you are unsuccessful in getting the real player to work, try this:
when real player opens do the following:
click on tools->preferences->network transport->
then check the "manually configure connection settings"
click on RTSP settings and uncheck everything except "Attempt to use HTTP for all contents" click OK.
Next
click on PNA settings and uncheck everything except "Attempt to use HTTP for all contents" click OK.
Enjoy!!
Would the Sys Admin know if you've done that? :D
when real player opens do the following:
click on tools->preferences->network transport->
then check the "manually configure connection settings"
click on RTSP settings and uncheck everything except "Attempt to use HTTP for all contents" click OK.
Next
click on PNA settings and uncheck everything except "Attempt to use HTTP for all contents" click OK.
Enjoy!!
Would the Sys Admin know if you've done that? :D
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sweet_jungle
04-22 12:42 PM
[QUOTE=caydee]Overall, the turnout was good. And the audience was very involved. The thing that impressed me the most was the resolve I saw in the Congressman.
I believe two IV members were on the dais. But, I do not know their names. Who were they? Were they the ones who met the Congressman later?
I believe two IV members were on the dais. But, I do not know their names. Who were they? Were they the ones who met the Congressman later?
more...
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chantu
07-28 11:47 AM
I think this thread should be closed. These kind of threads do incite feelings and can be detrimental to our cause. Already there is enough division between Eb2 and Eb3...master's and non-master's and now this.
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dummgelauft
03-12 10:10 AM
To all those who are screaming and shouting about "IV collecting Donations and doing nothing", I am not a donor myself, but we have to understand that IV IS THE ONLY platform we (EB community) have. However shaky or small the platform is. It takes a different kind of person to doggedly keep at something as insipid and difficult and immigration relief for EB and to put up with all the brickbats that armchair immigration proponents and to be beneficiaries like us throw at the IV core.
Pappu, I have put forth this idea many times, and will do so again, let IV be a members only forum, with a REASONABLE annual subscrition amount (say equal to themonthly cost of a decent cable/satellite subscription:-)..
This will achieve the following:
(1) Assured, stable fund collection for IV activities
(2) Only genuine IV supporters will sign up.
(3) To some extent, may be, will keep antis away (this is not assured, but may happen)
...Its Friday, so pickup a 6-pack, 12 pack or whatever pack on your way home, and relax...
Pappu, I have put forth this idea many times, and will do so again, let IV be a members only forum, with a REASONABLE annual subscrition amount (say equal to themonthly cost of a decent cable/satellite subscription:-)..
This will achieve the following:
(1) Assured, stable fund collection for IV activities
(2) Only genuine IV supporters will sign up.
(3) To some extent, may be, will keep antis away (this is not assured, but may happen)
...Its Friday, so pickup a 6-pack, 12 pack or whatever pack on your way home, and relax...
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krishnam70
02-19 08:26 AM
1 - It will grant GC to people with > 5 years in US
2 - For EB skilled immigration for people with <5 years in US, it makes LC process more difficult.
Please add your views about this bill, how it might be improved and its chances of becoming a law.
P.S. I previously misread the text somewhere. This bill just eliminate H1B classification for fashion models.
There is already a thread open by DVB on this forum. Can you please check if there is a thread open already before you open a new one. Just a suggestion so the observations of the members are all consolidated in one thread rather than spread over.
cheers
kris
2 - For EB skilled immigration for people with <5 years in US, it makes LC process more difficult.
Please add your views about this bill, how it might be improved and its chances of becoming a law.
P.S. I previously misread the text somewhere. This bill just eliminate H1B classification for fashion models.
There is already a thread open by DVB on this forum. Can you please check if there is a thread open already before you open a new one. Just a suggestion so the observations of the members are all consolidated in one thread rather than spread over.
cheers
kris
kondur_007
04-10 10:28 AM
Does anyone have numbers for spillover last year category wise? I mean, last year how many EB4, EB5 and EB1 left out visas got spilled over to EB2? Thanks...
Here are the details for last year and years before:
(Thanks to user "sangiano" on : link: FY2009 Visa Data, Spillover to EB2 - Will it be Similar FY2010 (http://www..com/usa-discussion-forums/i485-eb/498198953/fy2009-visa-data-spillover-to-eb2-will-it-be-similar-fy2010))
Employment Visas 2009
Total Employment Visas for FY2009 = 141,020
Theoretical values without spillover
EB1 28.6% = 40,332
EB2 28.6% = 40,332
EB3 28.6% = 40,332
EB4 7.1% = 10,012
EB5 7.1% = 10,012
Actual values with spillover
EB1 40,978 = 29.1% received c.650 spillup visa used
EB2 46,034 = 32.6% received c.5,700 spillover visas used
EB3 39,791 = 28.2% received c.550 less visas than quota
EB4 9,999 = 7.1% Zero spillup visas to give
EB5 4,218 = 3.0% c. 5,800 spillup visas to give
What is noteworthy is the fact that spillup/spillover visas were only available from EB5.
In addition, EB1 actually consumed spillup visas and did not contribute any spillover visas as a result.
This implies that the total spillover visas available to the 7% limited countries was only c.7,500. Since 5,800 came from EB5, less 650 used by EB1, this gives a subtotal of 5,150. In turn, this implies that there were only 7,500 - 5,150 = 2,350 as spillover from EB2-ROW. In the worst case the difference is entirely from EB5.
I think it gives food for thought and shows the difficulty of trying to second guess visa consumption in Categories that are always current. I accept it might be easier to get a handle on non-NIW EB2 because of the PERM data available for ROW.
I'm not sure why FY2010 would be much different, at least for EB1 spillover.
Additional notes from subsequent posts:
There was significant spillover in FY2007 because (based on 154,497 total EB visas) :
EB1 only used 26,806 out of a possible 44,186 available visas.
EB4 only used 4,794 out of a possible 10,969 available visas.
EB5 only used 793 out of a possible 10,969 available visas.
That gives a potential spillover of 33,731 visas to categories below EB1. In FY2007 that mostly went vertically to EB3.
There was significant spillover in FY2008 because (based on 162,949 total EB visas) :
EB1 only used 36,590 out of a possible 46,603 available visas.
EB4 only used 7,648 out of a possible 11,569 available visas.
EB5 only used 1,443 out of a possible 11,569 available visas.
That gives a potential spillover of 24,060 visas to categories below EB1. In FY2008 that all went to EB2.
The amount *was* smaller in FY2009 because (based on 141,020 total EB visas)
EB1 used 40,978 which was more than the available visas of 40,332 (i.e. it used some of the spillup from EB4/EB5).
EB4 used 9,999 out of a possible 10,012 available visas. (i.e it pretty much maxed out)
EB5 only used 4,218 out of a possible 10,012 available visas. (i.e. much higher than previous years)
That gives a potential spillover to EB2 of 5,161 visas, which is substantially lower than previous years.
This is all his analysis based entirely on historic data (no predictions here; just what has already happened). All credit of analysis goes to him. I never crunched a single number; I am just an "integrater" of the info. Please also note that now we have found out that the word "spillover" should actually be "fall across and down"
Hope this was the info you were asking for.
Here are the details for last year and years before:
(Thanks to user "sangiano" on : link: FY2009 Visa Data, Spillover to EB2 - Will it be Similar FY2010 (http://www..com/usa-discussion-forums/i485-eb/498198953/fy2009-visa-data-spillover-to-eb2-will-it-be-similar-fy2010))
Employment Visas 2009
Total Employment Visas for FY2009 = 141,020
Theoretical values without spillover
EB1 28.6% = 40,332
EB2 28.6% = 40,332
EB3 28.6% = 40,332
EB4 7.1% = 10,012
EB5 7.1% = 10,012
Actual values with spillover
EB1 40,978 = 29.1% received c.650 spillup visa used
EB2 46,034 = 32.6% received c.5,700 spillover visas used
EB3 39,791 = 28.2% received c.550 less visas than quota
EB4 9,999 = 7.1% Zero spillup visas to give
EB5 4,218 = 3.0% c. 5,800 spillup visas to give
What is noteworthy is the fact that spillup/spillover visas were only available from EB5.
In addition, EB1 actually consumed spillup visas and did not contribute any spillover visas as a result.
This implies that the total spillover visas available to the 7% limited countries was only c.7,500. Since 5,800 came from EB5, less 650 used by EB1, this gives a subtotal of 5,150. In turn, this implies that there were only 7,500 - 5,150 = 2,350 as spillover from EB2-ROW. In the worst case the difference is entirely from EB5.
I think it gives food for thought and shows the difficulty of trying to second guess visa consumption in Categories that are always current. I accept it might be easier to get a handle on non-NIW EB2 because of the PERM data available for ROW.
I'm not sure why FY2010 would be much different, at least for EB1 spillover.
Additional notes from subsequent posts:
There was significant spillover in FY2007 because (based on 154,497 total EB visas) :
EB1 only used 26,806 out of a possible 44,186 available visas.
EB4 only used 4,794 out of a possible 10,969 available visas.
EB5 only used 793 out of a possible 10,969 available visas.
That gives a potential spillover of 33,731 visas to categories below EB1. In FY2007 that mostly went vertically to EB3.
There was significant spillover in FY2008 because (based on 162,949 total EB visas) :
EB1 only used 36,590 out of a possible 46,603 available visas.
EB4 only used 7,648 out of a possible 11,569 available visas.
EB5 only used 1,443 out of a possible 11,569 available visas.
That gives a potential spillover of 24,060 visas to categories below EB1. In FY2008 that all went to EB2.
The amount *was* smaller in FY2009 because (based on 141,020 total EB visas)
EB1 used 40,978 which was more than the available visas of 40,332 (i.e. it used some of the spillup from EB4/EB5).
EB4 used 9,999 out of a possible 10,012 available visas. (i.e it pretty much maxed out)
EB5 only used 4,218 out of a possible 10,012 available visas. (i.e. much higher than previous years)
That gives a potential spillover to EB2 of 5,161 visas, which is substantially lower than previous years.
This is all his analysis based entirely on historic data (no predictions here; just what has already happened). All credit of analysis goes to him. I never crunched a single number; I am just an "integrater" of the info. Please also note that now we have found out that the word "spillover" should actually be "fall across and down"
Hope this was the info you were asking for.
TexDBoy
09-10 11:00 AM
They r into recess now ... lunch at 11:00 ... I guess its bit early .. :)
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